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Fun Horse Names for Our Thoroughbred Born on January 1st - He's Going to the Kentucky Derby. What name should this horse have?
Born First Run First - Perfect name for a horse we expect to win a lot of stake races
6%
Happy New Year Baby - With all the money this horse will earn, it's going to be a great racing year!
3%
Follow Your Elders - Born before the other horses, this is a perfect name for a leader on his way to the Triple Crown.
8%
Can Run From Day One - Born early and ready to race. Bring on the bed of roses!
19%
January's First - This guy will be first on that First Saturday in May when he crosses the finish line for the Kentucky Derby.
64%
Total votes: 36
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Big Brown VS Curlin
Posted on: Sat, 08/30/2008 - 6:14pm
Big Brown VS Curlin
I am so tired of the Big Brown bashers, what more can this horse do. BB gets bashed for beating a weak Haskell field, why was it weak? No one wanted any part of him. They avoid him and the good horses went to the Travers. Curlin races against an even weaker field in the Woodard and runs a full second slower in the final eight than BB did. Will Curlin get heat for this? No. For someone reason Curlin is Americas horse but Big Brown is the horse of the year.
Comments
he ran the final 8th in 14 seconds...not so world class in my book. My 5k claimer ran his final 1/8 today going long in 13
I think perhaps the ban on steroids are bringing the big boys back to the pack...
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May they all come home safely!!!
I think that Curlin's Woodward was in no way impressive. I think yesterday's race was just as second-rate as Big Brown's. I just think that Curlin is a better horse than Big Brown. Curlin's defeated the likes of Street Sense, Hard Spun, and Lawyer Ron. Big Brown hasn't beaten any high-class stakes winners. I want to see him go up against older horses and win. Then I'll give him more credit. Not denying that he's a good horse, he's by and far the best horse in his crop. But he's just beating up on the same horses. Let's see how he does against older horses. I'm really interested in seeing him on the turf, because that's where all the good older horses are right now.
He slowed down in his final eighth, but he had to run hard to get out of that jam he was in around the last turn and make up the ground to the leader.
As an interesting aside, Curlin's people are saying they MIGHT choose to run him in a race at Santa Anita at the end of this month, and if he does ok on that new surface, they MIGHT send him back to the Breeder's Cup Classic.
We'll see...
If the Haskel Stakes was a weak field, why wasn't Big Brown's effort more impressive? Oh, I liked his courage at the end and I'm glad he won. I like this horse. Don't get me wrong (not bashing) but feel somethings not quite right with him. To me, it looked like he wanted to pull up about the same spot Kent pulled him up in the Belmont. He did manage to win, however, so you can't take that away from him.
At this point in time and comparing the two, I think Curlin is the better horse. JMHO
Some tracks thaught it would be nice to offer CASH an lots of it to make this happen. But owners are people too an greed is good in the sport of kings. The spa dirt isn't Curlin's best surface, the dirt isn't that deep. Curlin is deeper the better. Big Brown is a big Turf horse that can run on any surface. But deep surface isn't good. You can't say Big Brown is better than Curlin all you have to do is compare resumes. Curlin's camp is looking big an getting key races for history. Big Brown is preparing for the BC Classic a race already won by Curlin. The only knock on Curlin is he lost to a Philly no matter if Rags to Riches if entered in the Kentucky Derby instead of the Oak would of been the favorite.
At the same points in their career's (after the Haskell before their BCC prep), Big Brown's resume is actually a lot stronger. He has on big slip up but there are reasons behind that and his other dominant performances make up for that race and then some. How BB finishes off the rest of the year will be very important in determining his place in history because of his lightly raced past. If you give one great horse 14 starts and the other 7, you are very rarely going to be able to say the one with 7 has a better resume. At similar points in their career, I think Big Brown has more talent, but thats just my opinion. I doubt Big Brown would be able to beat Curlin on dirt right now, but if they were the same age I think it would be the other way.
BTW, I don't think Curlin has the stamina to go past 10 furlongs like most people thinks he does and that is the main reason he couldn't beat Rags to Riches in the Belmont. He looked tired both times he has gone past 1 and 1/4 (belmont and man o war) and sometimes when you think he is going to blow by everyone, he seems to just pick up the really tired ones and win by less than you though he would.
If you agree that Rags To Riches had the stamina to go further than 10 furlongs when she barely beat Curlin in a thrilling stretch run, where they were head and head, nose and nose, to the wire, then one must say the same for, Curlin. At even weights, Curlin would have won the Belmont. Females get weight allowances. Jockey Club Scale Of Weights.
Interestingly I had a twenty dollar exacta on Rags To Riches over Curlin so won more than $250.00 on Belmont Day. Maybe it was the turf that beat Curlin in the Man O' War, or time between races? Wasn't that the name of the stakes race? Man O' War? I should know.
It's important to realize too, that many great race horses and some not so great race horses sometime take the lead in stretch, but won't pull away from the competition.This is just their style and doesn't mean they're tired, or can't get the distance.
Curlin already has proved his stamina to at least go 12 furlongs. Beyond that, who knows? I'd guess that he could.
I hate to use times, but I really don't think that his 2:29 or so proves he has the stamina to go at least 12 furlongs. He can run 10 furlongs pretty consistenly in the 2:01 range so averaging out around 28 seconds for his final 2 furlongs when he is a closer pretty much shows that he gets tired after 10 just like the rest of him. You could say his 14 second final furlong in the Woodward may have been because he doesn't pull away from his competition but as we have seen in many of his previous races (first 3, BCC, Dubai, SF) he pulls away when he can. I think it was because he was tired after going 5 wide around the first turn. Now Big Brown on the other hand went 5 wide the entire Kentucky derby, ran close to the pace setters, and still went the final 2 furlongs in 25 and 1. Which believe it or not, was actually faster than Denis of Cork. So who has more stamina again? lol.
Curlin has already proven that he could go 12 furlongs. Big brown hasn't. I'm not saying he (Big Brown) can't get the distance. Possibly he can. I don't know since he has never been tested at that distance. Most likely never will.
Two furlongs averaging out to be 28 seconds. Where are you getting these statistics? That seems slow to me for any stakes horse.Even cheap claimers. That would be the half in 56 seconds. Unheard of.
Well Curlin has proven he can run 10 furlongs consistently in about 2:01. The only race at 12 furlongs we have of him is his belmont which he ran in about 2:29. You subtract the two and that means to go an extra 2 furlongs, Curlin's time drops off by 28 seconds. That doesn't mean his last 2 furlongs are run in 28 seconds, it just means that that how much his time drops off when adding that distance. Now comparing times like this has a great deal of error, but it won't be more than a second here or there. If you haven't read it before, go to bloodhorse.com and read the last post in Haskin's blog. He mentions there a bunch of interesting statistics about what happens to Curlin when he has to run closer to a fast pace. Basically, if he has to run anything faster than 1:11 for the first 6 furlongs, he is done. It is when he can patiently sit back at about a 1:13 when he can pounce on people at the end of the race. I don't think Curlin necessarily has great stamina for a classic distance horse, I think that is more an illusion of his running style. We have never seen Big Brown go 12 furlongs so we can't say anything for sure, but the fact that he can run right up on the pace of 1:10 quarters and still close with 12 and change furlongs tells me that he has pretty good stamina. Especially for a horse whose breeding has been criticized constantly despite having a fair share of stamina influence.
Hi, Dan, I see what you're getting at. Thanks for responding and your great explanation. I think there was a misunderstanding on my part. I'll read the Bloodhorse magazine article that you mention. Possibly I'll comment on this thread.
When you ( not "you" personally) talk about a horses stamina, I admire the Countries such as England that continue to breed and race the classic marathon horse. They sure go for the stamina aspect of race horses. I'd like to see more of that in our Country. I'm sure most of us, when playing this great game, select the longer races when this isn't done for us automatically.
Well, it sounds like more and more it won't happen:
http://drf.com/news/article/97949.html
I assume Curlin won't run in the BC Classic without at least one test/prep race on the new Santa Anita surface. And now they've got him in New York on Sept. 27th so that leaves little time to see how he likes the new surface.
I agree soundofrum. A tired fast horse can't outrun a fresh average speed horse. There is a definite lack of stamina in american horses today. How important is being able to run a 11 second furlong if you can only do it for 4 furlongs? The classic distance ones for the most part are the ones that are so fast that when you stretch them out, their early speed has made up for what they lack in stamina. I hate to use this example but Secretariat ran his Kentucky Derby and clocked in at faster quarter times each quarter mile. Now that is what I call stamina. Even a horse like big brown may run the following set of quarter splits: 23 and 2, 24, 24 and 2, 24 and 2, 24 and 4 and that would come out to a 2:01 10 furlong time. They aren't really getting faster, its more of them momentarily accelerating while the others aren't able to, That may not have been said in the clearest way but I think you get my point. Curlin is the type of horse who will run consecutively between 24-24 and 2 quarters the whole race when others are slowing down into the 25 range and then just like the rest of them, he'll slow down to a 26 or slower any quarter after that. Its a shame how much speed dominates breeding these days.
Some have said that this practice in America has had the bad affect of why so many horses are breaking down. I notice, at least at Bay Meadows, ( set to be torn down soon) the standard six furlong sprint is now 5 to 5 1/2 furlongs. Gosh...can't these horses get the six furlongs anymore. What's going on? It was always six furlongs. Always.
I notice too, those marathon races in England, as an example, have the entire field just loping along at a slow steady gallop and that the real racing doesn't start until less than three furlongs out, where they're able to accelerate at full speed, unlike our style of racing these distances in this Country.
well i love horse racing period and curlin and big brown are awsome i wish i could jus get to meet them or any horse people. im fromhawaii and nno racing here. careful on concentratin on curlin and brown and watch out for casino drive yeeha love the sport. love the horses, love it all .. tc all aloha jon p (keoni) in hawaiian
Dan, I was the jockey on a gray horse called, Razor in several races lately, where he has no trouble winning. He consistently likes to lag in the rear and mow them down in deep stretch.
His favorite distance appears to be 9.5 furlongs, but I think he could easily get more. Usually has reserve energy at the finish.
Anyway, in his most recent race ( me riding ) the gates swung open and from his outside post position he rushed into contention and decided to run with the two front runners, with no urging from me. I let him stay there and dropped down along the rail to save ground.
I stayed there the entire trip and won easily. When he rushed to the front like that ( a first , I said to myself, "What's going on here"?, Razor isn't a front runner. He drops back early and follows the field until the final 3 furlongs.
Well, I got my answer passing the quarter pole in 25 flat and the half mile pole in 49 4/5 seconds. Razor was running the same style as always, but these slow fractions by the leaders made it look otherwise. Razor didn't change his tactics at all. He was running "his" race.
I think it is only natural for us to assoiate closers with a certain distance trailing or intial spot in the race. We don't see the difference between a 24 and a 25 but i'm sure the horses can feel it. If the BCC has a 25 second openning quarter, Curlin wouldn't sit 10 lengths back running a 27 second quarter because he would have too much ground to make up. When I play this game, I always try and take it slow until the final half of a mile and I never extend to full effort until the quarter pole. Even on stalking horses, I feel a lot more comfortable staying 5 back than using too much effort to sit 1 back. If you have the 2007 3-up males file, you will understand how much I love using Benny the Bull in this game. Even in 6 furlong sprints, he doesn't get to his cruising speed until about 3/4 of a furlong. In turn, he cruises through a 23 and 1 or so half but still closes in 23 or faster. He just flies down the stretch. He goes from 8 back to leading in seconds and it is so fun. With his speed and a little bit of smart riding, and a lot of luck, he is almost unbeatable at a mile(That is between the horses of 2008, 2007, 2006, and 2004).
big brown only wins with drugs curlin is going to be beat by zenytta in the classic this year 4 sure
Great post, Dan. Thank you for the heads up on, Benny The Bull. I'm having so much fun riding this push button horse, who tags along in the rear , until the real racing begins, than mows them down in the stretch and wins going away.
I've been running him on the dirt at 8.5 furlongs at our local track, Bay Meadows. Track conditions, sloppy. I experimented once at 1 1/2 miles on the turf, in England and he mowed them down again, as always, inside the furlong pole, but his energy bar was used up and he quit, finishing 4th. No surprise here. The distance appeared to far. Of course, the turf and foreign Country might have had something to do with the outcome. Only time will tell. At any rate, he ran very well, always giving his best.
Great post, Dan. Thank you for the heads up on, Benny The Bull. I'm having so much fun riding this push button horse, who tags along in the rear , until the real racing begins, than mows them down in the stretch and wins going away.
I've been running him on the dirt at 8.5 furlongs at our local track, Bay Meadows. Track conditions, sloppy. I experimented once at 1 1/2 miles on the turf, in England and he mowed them down again, as always, inside the furlong pole, but his energy bar was used up and he quit, finishing 4th. No surprise here. The distance appeared too far. Of course, the turf and foreign Country might have had something to do with the outcome. Only time will tell. At any rate, he ran very well, always giving his best.
It's a lot of fun taking a particular horse in this game and trying it at different distances and over different surfaces. They all have their distances and footing they love, some that they are ok with, and some that they hate.
But the only way to find out is to run a horse over a wide variety of circumstances. That's one reason why I can play this game for hours.
bvhsman11,
You do know that Curlin used steriods for his entire 3 year old campaign last year right? Not just the derby and preakness, but all of the way through the BCC. His drop off in talent has been pretty evident if you ask me. He seems to be getting worse and worse(which in this case is less and less dominant) each time he goes out now. Why mention a horse who used it less and not mention anything about the use of steriods by Curlin? And why would you even think Zenyatta could get the 1 and 1/4. At 8.5 furlongs, she is almost as good as any male horse out there, but I seriously doubt her skill up to 10 furlongs because with her running style, they would have tried it already if her connections thought she had it in her. The distaff will be exciting and tough enough so I see no reason for her to go to the classic. I wouldn't be surprised though, I would just think it would be the wrong decision and she would be somewhat "exposed" for being a great horse but not a special horse. If she wins the distaff easy, there still is that auora that she really is unbeatable in her division.
I usually take a horse and start him/her as a two year old and race them thru a season and then race them as three year olds. Taking them thru the season as I would if I was the owner or trainer.
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May they all come home safely!!!
I don't understand how you age the horse like that, Ron. Do you mean where a horse might appear in more than one horse file? Like say, he appears in "Best 3 year olds of 2006", and then appears in "Best 3-up of 2007", for example?
At any rate, I'm glad that the industry is finally dealing with the problems of steroids. I understand that there's a period of negative withdrawal symptoms if a horse is suddenly deprived of his/her steroid use.
Speaking only for California, they recently banned steroid use, but, unfortunetly (sp), at Del Mar racetrack, in southern California, they found 38 ( going by my memory) violations, most of them involving the top two trainers there. This is under investigation. Be interesting to see how this plays out.
Ronald, I too was wondering how you do a 2 year old season?
I'm not being snarky or facetious here... but do we have some reason to suspect that only the top horses of the last few years have been on steroids? Would it be a huge surprise if all twenty of the horses in the gate in the last kentucky Derby were all on some kind of steroid?
Hi mrmojok, You beat me to the punch. I almost posted something along those lines. Your point is very well taken. I think the greater percentage of race horses use some drug.
Hi mrmojok, You beat me to the punch. I almost posted something along those lines. Your point is very well taken. I think the greater percentage of race horses use some drug.
What I do is decide what horse I want to campaign for two years. Generally I pick one my favorites, for this example I'll use Candy Ride from the Best of 2000-2003. Basically I'll set the races up where I choose the horses. Then I select Age/Gender - "2year olds only". Then list the races. What you have essentially done is limit the participants to 2 year olds and you get to choose the horses. What's great is now you have all the two year old races listed, so now you can start your campaign. I usually race on the west coast, so I would start in the Westchester Stakes at 4.5F
Next is picking your horse to run. What is key to the fun and randomness is not to pick your competiton. Have the computer do it. First pick the file you want and select your horse. Next I like to use a another file as the competiton file for the same age. I find myself using best 2008 for competiton for my horse, then we gets past the triple crown and facing older horses, I change it to best of 2007.
Now, you should only have your one horse in the selected horse column. This is where I switch files, best of 2008 in this example. Now change the horse selection option to automatic horse selection. What ever the computer comes up with for the amount of horses I usually leave it. But now is the time to change it if you want. Next, just hit continue. You are all set for your first two year old race. Next I will go thru the same set up in choosing my next race for my 2 yr old campaign thru the breeders cup juvenile. I will do the same thing thru the 3 year old season. Sometimes with a 4yr I go over seas to Europe and Australia before I move on to a new horse.
This way you can get a feel for a horse if you owned him. What races would you take him to? Where do you prep? Do you try him on grass? Do you stay on east coast or west coast? More importantly, I how long do stay on the Derby trail when you know your horse is distance limited?(for instance, I campaigned Los in the Fog who was a dominant 2yr old and great upto a mile as a 3yr old. I took a shot at the derby, but began to campaign him as sprinter. He did not stand up to well in facing older horses) If you have special filly, how many times do you run her against boys? I ran Rags to Riches predominately agains fillies until the Santa Anita Derby. Then she eventually became the first filly to win the triple crown. Loads of fun!!! This really is great game.
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May they all come home safely!!!
Hi,
Forgive me if I have already posted this elsewhere. I have used the game to pit Big Brown against Curlin in a match race a number of times -- usually at 10 furlongs but sometimes at 9 furlongs. Curlin has never won or even come close!! Big Brown takes the lead and then Curlin makes a move on the backstretch, but then Big Brown responds and draws off to a convincing win -- oftentimes by open lengths. Perhaps Curlin has not been re-rated in the game to take into account his World Cup win -- and maybe Big Brown has not been re-rated since his Derby and Preakness wins. Any thoughts?
Curlin and Big Brown are pretty even as far as speed ratings go in the game. So, weight and distance lost on turns will play a big part in the results. The race shape is really unfair to Curlin in a match race. Add War Pass to the race at lets say 10F and see if there is a difference
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May they all come home safely!!!
UM the travers is an elite three year old race. The way it looks is that big brown is avoiding them, and he was all out. It is no match and he won't even hit the board in the breeders cup.